Are you ready for kindergarten? Am I? Is Z?

[dsrtao]

Here's what the school district wants in a child entering kindergarten:

[Unknown site tag]

• Listen to stories without interrupting. That sounds like it's for the teacher's convenience. I don't listen to stories much in the office, although I do write them from time to time. Z can do this.
  
• Understand actions have both causes and effects. 37% of the voters don't know this one.
  
• Cut with scissors. I suppose. Although a knife with a straightedge guide is usually better.
  
• Follow simple directions. Z manages complex directions, when he feels like it. Creating simple directions is harder -- that's programming!
  
• Manage bathroom needs. An excellent skill. Everyone should have them. Politely excusing your self from a meeting or class, for instance... what do you mean, carry a pass?
  
• Button shirts, etc... the people on television aren't great role models, and Z's only clothes with fasteners are one button-down shirt and several polo shirts. He's so preppy...
  
• Begin to control oneself. I hear some subtext...
  
• Separate from parents without being upset. Have I ever told you the story of How I Went Home in the Middle of the Day and the Teacher Never Noticed?
  
• Speak understandably. Z can pronounce seventy-nine dinosaur species.
  
• Talk in complete sentences of five to six words. How about fifty words with proper subclauses and phrases?
  
• Identify some alphabet letters. Z is teaching himself to read silently. He identifies some non-English letters.
  
• Count to ten. E counts backwards for rocket launches. Z is trying out counting by 2s and 3s.
  
• Be ready to listen. No comment.
  
• Be responsible for putting away his toys. Well, when prompted.
  
• Establish a clear dismissal routine for your child to follow. Fish bicycle?
  
• Smile. Condescend much?
  
• ...more things for parents, not kids.
  

The question is not whether Z is ready for kindergarten. The question is whether he is ready for first grade or second.

Comments

[liamstliam.livejournal.com]

Knowing you and him, I understand your snarky tone.

As a teacher, it bothers me.

Good luck! ;)

[sareena99.livejournal.com]

You wrote:
>The question is not whether Z is ready for kindergarten.<

No, the question is whether kindergarten (or any school) is ready for Z!

[cellio]

Beat me to it. :-)

[its-just-me.livejournal.com]

You may want to bump him. With his height and outgoing personality I really doubt he'd have any trouble.

Also, did the teacher mentionanything about not creating black holes or using fission while in class? Because...it's free game if she didn't.

[robertdfeinman.livejournal.com]

Ask Alex about the pros and cons of skipping a grade.

[elizabear.livejournal.com]

DSR also skipped a grade, but it was from halfway through 1st into halfway through 2nd, and it wasn't smooth.

[metahacker.livejournal.com]

I hate to say it but some of these skills are definitely worth learning, and (if I can be somewhat rude) ones that you lacked. I remember a time when we went to do some crafts...I think cutting up paper and stapling it to bulletin boards -- and either your scissor or your stapling skills were highly suspect. (Can't remember which right now.) I blame your kindergarten teacher! The world could have ended!

On a more serious note, I'm glad they wrote these down. These are actually fairly important skills. Learning to take your turn is something you need to have down pat before you learn when you *may* interrupt. Learning to dress yourself and use the potty properly...well, let's just say I wish that folks were taught that better just about every time I use a public restroom. (And I still routinely miss a button in the middle of my shirt somewhere.)

Learning to smile...is a sign of social engagement. I think there's something wrapped up in there which isn't condescension, but should be better expressed. Something like, "should be socially engageable"?

...anyway. Interesting list.

(Oh, and of *course* it's for the teacher's convenience. I'm not sure why this part is surprising.)

[marysdress.livejournal.com]

Actually, it's not just for the teacher's convenience. It's also for the other children who need to share the teacher. A child who is not developmentally ready for kindergarten can disrupt the entire class and require lots of extra time. If you're paying for a private school with a small class, this isn't such a big deal. If you're going to public school, then it's a big deal. (See my note I'm going to post about our own experience.)

[marysdress.livejournal.com]

No, the question is whether he is ready for kindergarten.

If you meant this list implies 1st or 2nd grade readiness and not kindergarten readiness, then I would disagree. Kindergarten is much more demanding than it was even 8 years ago. Kids need to be able to sit for prolonged periods of time, focus and be reasonably self-starting and not require a lot of hand holding.

If you meant that Z is ready for 1st or 2nd grade let alone kindergarten, then I would also disagree. Developmentally he's nowhere near ready to take on the demands of 1st grade and I seriously doubt that his fine motor skills are ready for it too.

I sent my first child to kindergarten at 5.5 years. He was developmentally, academically and emotionally ready. I sent our youngest at exactly 5. They were not developmentally ready even though they were academically. It was a mistake. I ended up pulling them out in February.

Z has lived a sheltered world where he shares the center of it with one sibling. In kindergarten he will have to become one cog in a class of 20+ kids (probably). It's a transition and he should be as ready for it as possible if you want it to be a good one.

Personally, my guys have profited from having to learn to work well in groups, develop the necessary self-sufficiency and maintain their individuality while being a good cog in the machine - but it hasn't always been easy. I'm grateful they did kindergarten twice and weren't moved on.

And lets be real - if he's going to interrupt whenever the teacher tells a story, then he's not just going to be making her life inconvenient but he's going to make the experience unpleasant for all the other kids in the class. As an adult in the office, you know when to be quiet and when to speak up - or what the cost will be if you decide to go against the grain. Z doesn't understand that yet.

In my opinion, the academic checklist is much less important than the developmental one for kindergarten. Most kindergarten teachers I know agree with me.

[metahacker.livejournal.com]

Well put.

Some social structures exist to make things smoother for everyone, lest the squeaky wheels get *all* the grease.

Black holes

[metageek.livejournal.com]

I think that's probably covered under school weapon policies.

"I can't cut with scissors. I use my katana instead. Is that OK, teacher?"

[sareena99.livejournal.com]

>Kindergarten is much more demanding than it was even 8 years ago. Kids need to be able to sit for prolonged periods of time, focus and be reasonably self-starting and not require a lot of hand holding.<

Why?
Why are we asking 5 yr olds to sit for prolonged periods of time?
Why are we expecting them to be independant?
Is it developmentally appropriate?
What do they learn by doing it?

>if he's going to interrupt whenever the teacher tells a story, then he's not just going to be making her life inconvenient but he's going to make the experience unpleasant for all the other kids in the class.<

Why are we teaching children NOT to ask questions?
Why do we expect 5 yr olds to be able to wait until the teacher has finished reading the whole story before asking his questions?
Is it developmentally appropriate?
Whoever said that a teacher should not expect to be inconvenienced by a curious child?

Why do we expect 5 yr olds to be able to become "one cog in a class of 20+ kids?"
Why would ANYONE, regardless of age WANT to become one cog in a class of 20+?
What does it teach them?
How does this help them to learn?

I find it interesting that children who usually attend public schools, but are unable to do so for an extended period of time due to, for example, being sick, are allotted a home teacher who is able to cover a week's worth of school work in 1.5 hours.
What the *(^% are they doing in school for the rest of the time? Learning to line up at the door?
Yes, I am serious! I distinctly remember a conversation with a kindergarten teacher who declared that she could always tell which children had been in pre-school programmes because they were the ones who knew how to form a straight line.
How long does it take to teach a kid to line up at the door? A whole year of pre-school?

Kids only do what they CAN do. There is a lot of pressure on schools to teach children more and more at earlier ages. Unfortunately, there is little regard for what children are capable of doing, or any acknowledgement that they vary widely in their interests and abilities. By their very nature, schools have to cater to those children that fall into the *average* category. Those who fall into the *above* or *below* sections are treated as slightly weird and distinctly inconvenient. More services are usually provided for the *below* kids because of public pressure. Those who are *above* are most often simply expected to cope, and occasionally thrown the bone of an abbreviated gifted and talented programme. What an absolute waste of a national resource!

I taught my children to ask questions - to question everything.
I encouraged their curiousity, because that is the basis of true learning.
If the teacher felt *inconvenienced* then I felt that s/he was in the wrong job.

OK, I am getting off my soapbox now :)

[marysdress.livejournal.com]

(Note - I am a parent, but not a teacher. These are observations and not educated answers.)

I did not say children were being taught not to ask questions. As far as I can tell, teachers still love questions - after the child has raised their hand and waited to be called on. Interrupting means you do not have the maturity to raise your hand and wait to be called on. That's different.

As for what one learns about being a cog - one learns to function well in a group with others, which is what you're going to have to do if you're going to get through our woefully underfunded, overcrowded public school system. Doesn't hurt in life either. I didn't say lose your individuality - I meant to play nicely with others, wait your turn and realize that sometimes you have to bend or be patient or accept things simply will not go your way. I see a lot of kids as a volunteer in school. Some of them simply do not get that in the younger grades.

As for how long does it take kids to learn how to line up and walk quietly down the hallway? Longer than you think. There is an astonishing inability of kids to follow directions and behave in a way that was a given when I was a child. It was the rare child in my time who would mouth back to a teacher or roughhouse in the hallway. I see it all the time. For three years I have cut waffles/pancakes in the lunchroom for one grae of 60+ children. During all that time, only one child has said please and thank you to me. He says it every time. The others never do. The world has changed.

More services are provided to below average kids not because of public pressure but because it's the law and because of test scores for No Child Left Behind. Any child of a below average kid will tell you they also had to fight for everything they got. As for above average kids - there's no way to provide them with more than an occasional bone unless there is tracking in the younger grades. For many reasons schools don't track until the upper grades. That said, I don't think average kids have it that good anymore now that resources are scarce because legally those resources must be used for the special ed kids.

In short, the system has serious problems due to lack of funding which leads to large classrooms and limited resources. However, I have consistently run into dedicated teachers who bend over backwards and give beyond the level of sanity not only of their time but out of their own wallet to try to make things work for the kids in their classroom. Maybe I've been lucky - but none of them would ever have thought they were inconvenienced by a child. Some of them, though, would have wished that the child's parents taught them better manners or self-control or waited until they were developmentally ready so the child was not disruptive in the class due to the fact that they simply developmentally weren't ready to be where they are.

Those children are rare these day in my experience except in kindergarten. Most people hold their kids back so a child who is barely 5 is a rarity in kindergarten - except for those parents who send their kids because it's cheaper than daycare or preschool. I know they exist because I've heard them say that's why they put their kid into kindergarten.

[marysdress.livejournal.com]

"Any parent of a below average kid" not "Any child"... Geez I cannot type today.

[elizabear.livejournal.com]

Most people hold their kids back so a child who is barely 5 is a rarity in kindergarten

I heard this yesterday from a friend of mine who has kids in 2nd grade and K. Apparently, Z might be in the minority since many kids who have summer birthdays are waiting an extra year to start K. Also, kids who are physically on the small side are apparently also being delayed by parents who want them to be more on par with their peers, especially for sports. These delays never occurred to me, as I've never had to deal with a kid who is small or academically average, so it was very interesting information.

Z has lived a sheltered world where he shares the center of it with one sibling. ... It's a transition and he should be as ready for it as possible if you want it to be a good one.

He's been doing a lot of classes in the last two years including several where I'm not involved at all, but his big chance will be this summer: he has four weeks of day camps spread over July and August.

[marysdress.livejournal.com]

One other thought - I think you'll find a lot fewer girls with summer birthdays are held back than boys. It's not the size thing that more boys are held back (although that does factor in for families with a sports outlook)as a developmental thing. Girls are usually more predisposed to be ready to adjust to the amount of concentration and sitting involved in kindergarten. Boys aren't as much. Even then, I know many parents with girls with summer birthdays who felt it took them well into 2nd grade to catch up with their classmates.

I know some people will bemoan the amount of sitting and concentration involved in kindergarten - but it's just how it is.

[sareena99.livejournal.com]

>I know some people will bemoan the amount of sitting and concentration involved in kindergarten - but it's just how it is.<

Right.
Which is why I question the whole system, one which puts pressure on very young children to behave in such ways.

I have taught in public schools, have volunteered in schools and have also home-schooled my own children and I agree that it is usually the boys who have most difficulty in sitting still for prolonged periods of time - that is, for more than a few minutes. In fact, most young children learn more effectively by DOING rather than listening and repeating back information. Playing is how young children learn. Directed play is how children learn more. Not to say that some more formal education is out of place, but in judicious amounts, adapted to the needs of each child. Of course, this is very difficult to achieve when there is a ratio of one teacher to twenty children or more.

Schools are how our society *socializes* children. That is, how it prepares them for our industrialized society. Depending upon your point of view, this could be either a good or a bad thing. For those that have concerns about our educational system, there are other options.
- You can supplement your child's *official* schooling with after-school activities. The downside of this is a prolonged day. The extra activities come at a time when the child is already tired and takes away play time.
- You can place your child in a private school that meets his/her needs - small classes and more individualized instruction, but that is very expensive.
- You can teach your child at home, connecting with the many excellent home-schooling organizations which offer all kinds of exciting programmes. However, this does require at least one parent to be available to the child during the day, and not every family can manage that.

In the end, everyone has to decide what will work best for their particular family. For many, that includes changing from one option to another, according to their needs. It never has to be an *all or nothing* situation.

[cvirtue.livejournal.com]

Another aspect not covered, which I've seen remarked upon in news articles of the Time and Newsweek variety: many, many kids come to Kindergarten with several years of preschool/childcare regimentation already under their belts.

[elizabear.livejournal.com]

Z has sat and done workbooks with me for up to two hours at a stretch. I know that's one-on-one, but he has also been taking karate, and I've seen his concentration on the teacher during this - he's really focused. There was a kid who was distracting Z at one point by pretend sparring with him during the class, but the sensei moved the kid away and Z went right back to being focused. He will also disappear, and I'll find him sitting and reading for 20-40 minutes at a time.

His K screening is May 9, but I don't expect to have any issues found. I just wish the screening was more than "pass/needs attention".

[elizabear.livejournal.com]

Yep - all of the paperwork asks where the kid went to pre-school, and they really want to see that the kid did go somewhere.

[cvirtue.livejournal.com]

I haven't spoken myself with teachers or administrators about this, so I don't know if they "want" it or merely assume that most kids will have been in preschool, and prepare for that.

Either way, they have to take kids who come to them with a variety of histories, and at least here, it's only half day, so it's not like throwing them into a long day with no preparation.

The screening for K was about an hour long. My kids got lower marks on things like "able to catch a ball" -- the kind of thing many parents (fathers) feel is critical consumer-sports knowledge, so it's assumed to be a good indicator of general physical integration. HA! I say to such assumptions, but there's no changing it. While the twins were off being screened, I had a lot of paperwork to fill out -- maybe they've given that to you ahead of time.

I would advise you to save any deliberations on advancing Z a grade (or waiting to start him) until he's been at the school for a few weeks.

[dsrtao]

I would advise you to save any deliberations on advancing Z a grade (or waiting to start him) until he's been at the school for a few weeks.

That's what my parents did, and it turned out to be a bad move.

The elementary school initially placed me in first grade based on chronological age. We had just moved into the state. (Mom, are you still reading this thread?)

The upshot was that they had no procedures to move a student at anything other than a semester boundary, and moving me from first grade to second in the middle of the year was awful. You see, in second grade they learned cursive writing, and they were up to L or M when I came in... cursive letters confused me for weeks, and I still dislike that sort of handwriting. Now, of course, I have actual proof that cursive writing is meant for printing presses, not for humans...

[cvirtue.livejournal.com]

Possibly you could then check with Z's potential school and see what procedures they have for such a move, before enrolling him?

I have a sort-of-related school experience: I was advanced in a couple of subjects when we moved states before 4th grade, so I was put in 5th grade subjects for those. When I was done with the 6th grade studies in those subjects (in 5th grade) they had no plans for what to do with me. So they put a 6th grader in 4th grade social studies. (And had me do independent study for reading, which was also a joke.) Abject stupidity. I could easily have been humiliated, but I didn't mind it -- but the 4th grade teacher was completely unprepared for the kind of social study questions a 6th grader would ask. I recall on more than one occasion, the teacher sputtering "We're not going to talk about that!"