I would venture to guess that the original method was pan frying, and deep-frying came later (given equipment needs and cost for additional oil). For true conversations of heresy, try the age-old apple-sauce vs sour cream debate, or "laht-kuhs" vs "lat-keys".
Hmm... *My* hebrew has this starting with a shin, which would make it a *shibbolet* (depending upon how you handle the final letter), since I'm a Levi. :-)
What's interesting (to me) is that the pronunciation thing might be a second-order shibbolet, in that I've heard the pronunciation differ not on the basis of family origin and how that location pronounced the Yiddish, but upon *US* locality amongst people for whom Yiddish isn't a common (or sometimes even known) language. I don't know what to make of it, apart from noting it with amusement.
(for the record, from what I can read of the Yiddish, the former pronunciation seems to be closer to "correct").
12,5 And the Gileadites took the fords of the Jordan against the Ephraimites; and it was so, that when any of the fugitives of Ephraim said: 'Let me go over,' the men of Gilead said unto him: 'Art thou an Ephraimite?' If he said: 'Nay'; 12,6 then said they unto him: 'Say now Shibboleth'; and he said 'Sibboleth'; for he could not frame to pronounce it right; then they laid hold on him, and slew him at the fords of the Jordan; and there fell at that time of Ephraim forty and two thousand.
(mechon-mamre.org translation, which is largely JPS 1917)
Wow, that seems to have worked. ANYway. I would pronounce that "shibolet", and "laht-kahs", but I know my Hebrew pronunciation is strange because it derives from Sephardic teachers, and my Yiddish pronounciation is OK because it derives from North New Jersey.
Looks/sounds about right (hence my comment about being a Levite; not being a Ephramite, we've got the right sound in our toolbox). Depending upon how you learned your Hebrew, though, it's possible it's "screwed up," at least from one perspective. When Israel began to attract more immigrants (perhaps starting about 130 years ago, or so), those trying to revive Hebrew as a spoken language did so with an attempt at Sephardic Hebrew, but with an Ashkenazic perspective. Thus Israeli Hebrew isn't "true" Sephardic Hebrew (witness the "tz" sound of the tzadi, which is there because of the similar sound in German, etc - it doesn't exist in Sephardic Hebrew nor, supposedly, in other Semitic languages). When more liberal (that is, mostly non-Orthodox) congregations taught Hebrew in their schools, what we learned was the Israeli amalgam and not really Sephardic Hebrew (though it is closer to Sephardic than Ashkenazic Hebrew). Your pronunciation is consistent with mine on both accounts. Do I know where in North NJ?
...And, I think, just a couple of years behind me, so we're in similar eras. Not so long after the Reform Movement (tm) decided that Israel was OK. I grew up in southern NY, right on the NJ border. I didn't know much Yiddish from my family itself, but from others in the area (and, being in the NY metro area, there were many others). My grandfather, by the way, was from London. Was born there in 1905; came over in 1906.
Might have been a speech defect. If the "sh" sound really didn't exist in their dialect... well, consider the trouble Japanese speakers are reputed to have with an l/r distinction.
On the other hand, it's not an exceedingly reliable guide to history.
Applesauce and sour cream are different m'sorot. Latkes made with squash, sweet potatoes, and random other non-potato ingredients might be a different matter to many. :-)
I've had discussions with people about whether an accidental drop of blood in the latke (from slicing, slicing, slicing) was an essential part of the recipe.
For the record, in our world the latke of choice is pan-fried with applesauce.
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(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-01 05:22 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-01 05:40 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-01 05:45 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-01 05:54 pm (UTC)What's interesting (to me) is that the pronunciation thing might be a second-order shibbolet, in that I've heard the pronunciation differ not on the basis of family origin and how that location pronounced the Yiddish, but upon *US* locality amongst people for whom Yiddish isn't a common (or sometimes even known) language. I don't know what to make of it, apart from noting it with amusement.
(for the record, from what I can read of the Yiddish, the former pronunciation seems to be closer to "correct").
(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-01 06:19 pm (UTC)(mechon-mamre.org translation, which is largely JPS 1917)
וַיֹּאמְרוּ לוֹ אֱמָר-נָא שִׁבֹּלֶת וַיֹּאמֶר סִבֹּלֶת, וְלֹא יָכִין לְדַבֵּר כֵּן, וַיֹּאחֲזוּ אוֹתוֹ, וַיִּשְׁחָטוּהוּ אֶל-מַעְבְּרוֹת הַיַּרְדֵּן; וַיִּפֹּל בָּעֵת הַהִיא, מֵאֶפְרַיִם, אַרְבָּעִים וּשְׁ
Wow, that seems to have worked. ANYway. I would pronounce that "shibolet", and "laht-kahs", but I know my Hebrew pronunciation is strange because it derives from Sephardic teachers, and my Yiddish pronounciation is OK because it derives from North New Jersey.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-01 06:31 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-01 06:40 pm (UTC)Hebrew school, for me, was in upstate NY, at -- you nailed it -- a Reform congregation.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-01 06:48 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-02 08:31 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-02 08:44 pm (UTC)On the other hand, it's not an exceedingly reliable guide to history.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-02 03:09 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-02 03:40 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-02 02:12 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-02 04:26 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-01 07:45 pm (UTC)For the record, in our world the latke of choice is pan-fried with applesauce.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-01 08:20 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-02 02:13 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-12-02 08:44 pm (UTC)